Brain Aware Podcast
The Brain Aware Podcast, exploring the science of success. We harness the power of human biology to help people—and organizations—rise to their potential. Join internationally recognized thought leader Dr. Britt Andreatta and talent strategist Justin Reinert as they explore the neuroscience behind today's workplace challenges, like change, teams, and leadership.
Each episode unpacks actionable insights from cutting-edge research to help you create environments for people to do their best work. Whether you’re an executive, people leader, talent professional, or lifelong learner, you’ll walk away with tools you can use today. Listen to become more brain aware.
Brain Aware Podcast
Beyond Performative Change: Creating True Workplace Equity
What does it take to create a workplace that truly works for everyone? Global talent advisor Stacey Gordon has dedicated her career to answering this question through her company, Rework Work.
In this candid conversation with hosts Justin Reiner and Dr. Britt Andreatta, Stacey reveals her fascinating journey from law school dropout to DEI champion. She shares how leaving a prestigious but personally unfulfilling legal career led her to discover her true calling in making workplaces more equitable. This pivotal career transition taught her valuable lessons about finding meaningful work at the intersection of passion, skill, and avoiding what drains your energy.
Stacey introduces her powerful "Four A's" framework—Awareness, Alignment, Action, and Advocacy—explaining why most organizations fail when they rush past crucial alignment conversations straight to performative actions. She invites listeners into what she calls "the messy middle"—that uncomfortable but necessary space where real organizational change happens through honest conversations about accountability, ownership, and business impact.
The discussion delves into the neuroscience of inclusion, exploring how we can rewire our brains from automatic exclusion to unconscious inclusion through deliberate practice. Stacey challenges listeners to embrace the discomfort that comes with examining biases, just as we willingly accept discomfort when learning new technologies or fitness routines.
Despite the changing political landscape surrounding DEI work, Stacey remains optimistic about creating meaningful change. Her perspective reframes diversity, equity, and inclusion not as separate initiatives but as integrated elements of effective leadership and talent strategy—simply good business practices that ensure opportunities for all.
Connect with Stacey Gordon at reworkwork.substack.com, reworkwork.com, or on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about making your workplace work for everyone.
Welcome to the Brain Aware podcast, where we explore the science of success. This episode brings you an inspiring conversation about career journeys and creating more inclusive workplaces. Today hosts Justin Reiner and Dr Britt Andreatta sit down with Stacey Gordon, a renowned global talent advisor and champion for workplace equity. A renowned global talent advisor and champion for workplace equity. Join us as we explore Stacey's fascinating career path, her mission to make workplaces work for all and her expert insights on diversity, equity and inclusion. Let's dive into this engaging discussion.
Britt Andreatta:Hi, Stacey, I'm so excited that you've joined us today and I'm looking forward to catching up, because you and I have known each other for at least a decade. I would love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit better. Can you share a little bit about your career journey as a global talent advisor and how you've ended up doing all the great work you're doing?
Stacey Gordon:Yes, time definitely warped in the pandemic. I think every year counts as two, so I get double credit for each year that we made it through. I have been in the talent space diversity, equity, inclusion, space inclusion like workplace culture has been the conversation that I've been having with professionals for many, many years and a lot of leaders around how do you make workplaces work for all? And that has been the mission of Rework Work, which is the name of my company. That came about because I was having a conversation one time when I was actually recruiting at the time and I was very frustrated with just the conversations that I was having with hiring managers. I said, oh, my goodness, we need to rework.
Stacey Gordon:I started listing all the things that we need to rework within the system. I was like, oh, we just need to rework work. And I was like, oh, you know what, that's a good name for a company. So in 2016, I changed the name of my company from the Gordon Group that was very, you know, very innovative at the time right and changed it to rework work. And you know, working with talent acquisition professionals, I feel like they have the biggest doorway into culture, change in organizations because they are bringing people into the you know, ushering them in to the space right, and they have the biggest visibility to the change that happens within organizations, so they also get the biggest blame. Being able to work with the people that help the people. Work is what I enjoy doing.
Britt Andreatta:That's fantastic and we will include your information in the show notes. I encourage everyone to check out Stacey's contribution. She's a thought leader and has been moving and shaking stuff in all the right ways for all the years I've known you. I'm excited for folks to discover you if they're not already fans.
Justin Reinert:And Stacey, thinking back on your career, you've probably gone through a lot of change, so if you wouldn't mind sharing one that's memorable, maybe one that went smoothly or one that was particularly challenging.
Stacey Gordon:Because of the work I've been doing, a lot of times people don't realize that I used to work as a paralegal. I have a lot of experience in the legal space. I went to law school. I tell people I am a proud law school dropout and switched careers and went to get my MBA. When I did that, I remember sitting in Pepperdine in one of my classes and thinking this is where I belong, this is what I should have been doing. I've wasted so much time and energy on something that did not fit me.
Stacey Gordon:Making that change was hard because a lot of people were like what are you doing? Why would you leave law school? Change was hard because a lot of people were like what are you doing? Why would you leave law school? That's a great career and it's like yeah, it's a great career for someone, but not for me. It wasn't going to allow me to make the changes that I wanted to make in the world. I thought I was going to go to law school and become a judge and that I was going to then be able to, you know, make change in sentencing, and I was going to be able to affect the way that people of color were treated in the justice system. I quickly realized that as a judge, I would not be able to do any of that. I would be hamstrung by a lot of laws and by a lot of politics and I would be very frustrated. And so I exited out of that pathway because I knew it wasn't going to give me the outcome that I wanted.
Stacey Gordon:Fast forward to the work that I do now. I teach. I'm an adjunct professor. I've been an adjunct professor at Pepperdine. I also am an adjunct at Newman University in Pennsylvania. One of the learners in my class was a criminal court judge. I had the opportunity to talk to her and change her mind about some of the things she was thinking about people and identify the biases she had. It took all those years to get to that place, to where now I'm able to have those conversations with the professionals that are out there interacting with people in the world.
Justin Reinert:Well, it sounds like you've definitely landed in the right place and are making some great impact. And you know, it struck me when you said I've wasted all this time. I need to do this other path. I'm just curious in that moment, or looking back at that transition what's one of your biggest lessons from that experience?
Stacey Gordon:I think my biggest lesson and this is kind of funny and it's a great plug here, right? So LinkedIn Learning. I'm a LinkedIn Learning instructor. I have eight courses. The funny thing is that the very first course that I created was with the assistance of Britt. She asked me to come in and I created the resume writing course. So that is the very first course that I did and that course has gone on to be used by nearly a million learners to change their careers or at least to fix their resumes. But what I realized was I then created a career change course. In making that course, I used my own background.
Stacey Gordon:So if you are thinking about how do I make a career pivot, it's too late for me, I can't do it. I tell people all the time you can do it anytime. But what you have to really understand is what are you good at? In that course I have people identify what are they good at, what do they enjoy doing and what do they never ever want to do again in life. Make that list and then really look at where those things intersect.
Stacey Gordon:What's really funny is people will focus on the things they enjoy doing and the things that they're good at. They don't focus on the things they enjoy doing and the things that they're good at. They don't focus on the things that they don't like to do, because a lot of times, some of the things you don't like to do you are really good at, and so what happens is you find yourself trapped in a career because people keep coming to you and going oh but, Britt, you're so great with this spreadsheet, can you help me with this? You understand how to do this. Could you do this for me?
Stacey Gordon:And so you get promoted right and continue to accelerate in this thing that you hate doing, and it makes it more difficult for you to extricate yourself out of it. But when you can identify it and say, actually, I don't like doing that, it then makes it easier for you now that you're aware you're like, oh, that. It then makes it easier for you now that you're aware You're like oh, this is why going to work every day sucks. But it's hard to do that when people are telling you what a great job you're doing. You think you're crazy, you think something's wrong with you.
Britt Andreatta:Yeah, that's such a great question to ask yourself. What do I not like doing? Because it's the other side of the stuff we focus on. My last book was on finding purpose and creating meaningful work, and I think that's an important journey. Sometimes we do it by, like you had the experience of sitting in law school going this is not my space, this is not the right place for me. That's just as valuable as landing in the right place from the get-go. You got great information from that. Tell us about what's happening right now. What are some of the big changes you're currently navigating or launching soon?
Stacey Gordon:There's a lot going on in the world. The funny thing is, as much as diversity, equity and inclusion is getting a bad rap and people are saying all kinds of untrue and completely fanatical weird things about it, what I have always said has not changed. We've always been about making workplaces work for all. We've always been about making policies equitable, about ensuring that work is fair, and so that hasn't changed and it will never change. That's not illegal, it will continue to be legal and that's the work that we're doing. For me, it's not so much the work that has changed, but the conversation that I have to have about the work has changed a little bit. I think that is a big source of frustration, because I feel like I'm having conversations I should not have to have.
Britt Andreatta:Yeah, I can imagine right now I'm hearing it from a lot of folks around just, it's really about creating spaces that are emotionally intelligent, psychologically safe and allow everyone to bring their best foot forward. Right Organizations thrive when everyone can show up and be their best selves and do their best work. You and I believe the same things, and this will prevail over time. I'm confident of that.
Justin Reinert:Stacey, given the focus of your career on DEI and making workplaces work for all. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about how change plays into the programs and initiatives that you drive within organizations?
Stacey Gordon:Change is a big piece of it and I think it's also the scariest piece, right? People hear the word change and immediately clam up I don't want to change, I don't want to do anything different. I know what I know and I want to keep doing what I do. And the question I have to ask is well, do you want a different outcome? Because if you've asked me to assist you with this new outcome, you can't possibly get there using the same practices and policies that you have in place now. If you want to get to a different outcome, we're going to have to do some different things. I think part of it is do you really want the outcome?
Stacey Gordon:Because a lot of the conversation we've had, I think, in the past, especially when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion is there's been a lot of performative behaviors. People don't necessarily want the outcome. They feel like they have to say they want the outcome. They feel like they have to say they want the outcome. They feel like they have to say they care, but they don't actually care. It's like working for a health care company that says they're all about women. Right, we care about women in leadership and making sure that women have a career path. But yet, when a woman gets pregnant or a woman has a health issue, it's very difficult for them to actually get the health care that they need from that same company.
Stacey Gordon:But you said you care about women, right, it's not just about so, it's putting, I think, the action in place, and what I like to help people do is focus on the mindset shift that has to happen. Once you make the decision that, yes, I actually care about this and yes, I want to do something about it, you'll figure out how to make it happen. We're smart people. We managed to put people on the moon. We will figure things out. So it's not so much about me helping you with creating a new process. It's really me helping you understand that you are the person that needs to make this change.
Justin Reinert:I can think of a client that I've worked with in the past where they just wanted people to stop complaining about the bad behavior that was happening. They didn't actually want to change the behavior. It makes me think of the change formula that you talk about. You know, the dissatisfaction with the current state. Is the dissatisfaction with the current state currently high enough for them to want to move forward in a new direction, to actually change their behaviors? And it can be a lot to get them there.
Britt Andreatta:Absolutely, and Stacey. You're helping organizations go through this journey of what do we really want? What do we want to accomplish. Do you have some favorite strategies that you use? Like it sounds like asking them this question of what do you really want, and you can't keep doing the same behavior if you want a different outcome. Are there a couple others that are kind of your go-tos that you find kind of gets people over that hump or creates that aha moment that gets the momentum moving in the direction they said they wanted to go?
Stacey Gordon:I have a framework and it's kind of the same framework but with different language In my book Unbiased I use the framework of the four A's. Basically it's an unbiased blueprint and it's like awareness, alignment, action, advocacy, and what I explain is that most people want to get to action, right, which is the third step, and they just want to jump straight there and you might become aware of the problem, but you skip over the alignment and go straight to action. It's like let's fix this problem, let's throw something at it they love DEI initiatives, right. And what happens is that we've skipped over that middle step, which is alignment.
Stacey Gordon:Thinking about the accountability, thinking about what is my role in actually fixing this, why are we fixing it? How does it matter to the business? When I roll people back a little bit, they get upset with me. They're like we're not moving fast enough. We need to be doing, doing, doing. And I'm like, no, you don't need to be doing, because if you keep doing, what you're doing is performative. We need to actually take some steps back and we need to have some real conversations about the why. Why does this matter to your business? Because if it doesn't actually matter to your business, then you don't really need to address it, and so we really have to start to figure out why does it matter, not just to the business, but to the individual leaders, to the managers that you want to push these initiatives down to.
Stacey Gordon:I can't tell you the number of times that leaders make a decision and say you need to do this. Managers say, okay, great, thanks for that. And then they walk away going this is some serious BS. Is that manager going to now take this policy that you have mandated and actually put it into practice? No, they're not. So you have all these great policies that look really good on paper, but in practice they're not being followed, and so you have to really get to what I like to call the messy middle. Nobody likes to sit there, but we do have to get in there, because in that space is where we start to identify. What are the actions that we start to identify? What are the actions that we are taking? What are the policies that we've ignored? What is the accountability that doesn't exist? Who has ownership of these projects? Why does it matter to the business? It's just so many different questions that we actually have to address before you can then say, okay, now let's take some action to move forward Now.
Britt Andreatta:Let's take some action to move forward. I love that. When people launch action without really thinking through the why behind it, it will fall apart. So it's really great that you're holding them in that messy middle until it gets clear. I love that.
Stacey Gordon:Yeah, and I think that's where we are right now, just as a society, if you think about a lot of the things that are happening on a larger scale.
Stacey Gordon:I really believe in having a lot of conversations about values, aligned leadership 15, 20 years ago, of leadership.
Stacey Gordon:Where we are today is leadership that is basically like Swiss cheese right, it's full of holes and this is why the roof is crumbling. When people bring me in and ask me we want to do this unconscious bias training or this leadership development with DEI in mind, I'm like do you have a foundation of psychological safety, empathetic leadership, accountability? If we don't have those things transparency and communication, having courageous conversations, open dialogue If you don't have a foundation of that, me coming in and providing you with DEI is actually extra pressure on the foundation and the foundation can't sustain it and it's why so many organizations right now are flailing because they haven't had the proper leadership foundation to begin with. A lot of the work that I do. You have people like oh, you're the DEI person. Actually, I'm the leadership development person because I have to come in and do all of this pre-work before I can ever even start to have the conversations about what equitable policies could look like in your company.
Justin Reinert:Great Stacey, thinking about how you were mentioning earlier how leaders or executives often want to move to action. Let's say we get to that point where we're ready for action. It makes me think about one of the things that in Wired to Resist, Britt talks about the basal ganglia and its role in forming habits, and so those actions, a lot of these things, are actions that we need to create new habits for. When you're working with your clients to build those actions into new habits, what are some ways that you go about that?
Stacey Gordon:Oh, I'm so glad you asked that, because so we have what I like to call our resident neuroscientist on our team, and I went to her probably four years ago now, maybe longer, and I said, Kendall, I want to create new habits, I need inclusion to be a habit. And how do we make that happen? She went into this long scientific explanation as to why we couldn't actually do that in the workplace. She explained how habits are formed and I was like, okay, got that, so what's the next best thing? Right? And so we got to the point of recognizing that, in order to create new habits, we have to make it repetitive. You have to make the outcome as close to the initial action as possible, and so what we've created is a leadership development program that has many of the scientific principles in it, and we worked on embedding all of these pieces in there to be able to get as close as possible as we could to creating new, inclusive habits, because what we find is that we all have the habit or the nature at this point to be automatically exclusive. It is very simple for us to go oh no, you have a redhead, you don't fit. You're a man, I don't want you in this group. Right, oh, you're black, you don't want you in this group. Right, oh, you're black, we don't want you here. Right, we exclude, no problem. It's much more difficult for us to include. So you actually have to work through that process.
Stacey Gordon:So that's why I said like I have the same framework, but it's just different words. So, four-step framework I talk about how do we get to unconscious inclusion? Right, that's the new habit I want you to get to, instead of this automatic exclusion. Well, to get there, we first have to understand and be conscious of what is unconscious bias, right, understanding what that looks like. Then we get to the next phase, which is being conscious of our biases, how we're showing up, what are we doing in the workplace, what does it look like? Then we can start to be conscious of how do we include people, which will eventually get us to the automatic unconscious inclusion. So we have a program that helps people move through that whole process. For the exact reason that we need to create more and new inclusive habits, we have to rewire our brains.
Britt Andreatta:Absolutely, and I think what's really important to acknowledge is, whenever we change habits, we are leaving something that's well-grooved and comfortable and trying something new that's awkward and uncomfortable, and this is true whether you're trying a new workout routine or you're shifting an email client.
Britt Andreatta:People put up with that discomfort of shifting habits, of creating a new neural pathway in a lot of places, but for some reason, the discomfort of seeing how biased you are, the discomfort of discovering oh, I have an automatic pattern here that I want to change, but ooh, that doesn't feel good. People have gotten scared of that discomfort, and yet they embrace that same discomfort of changing a way of thinking, of changing a way of behaving in other ways, and so I just want to challenge our listeners. Growing requires discomfort. You embrace it in a lot of places of your business. Learning how to treat people equally and fairly is no different than when you embrace the discomfort of trying a new email client. It gets easier with time, but of course it's uncomfortable, and that's part of that messiness that makes organizations better, and yet some people want to avoid them.
Stacey Gordon:And I think you make a good point, though, that people will embrace the change. Why? Because they have a good reason. There's something that eventually tips them over and says, ah, I'm going to have to do this right, I want that flat stomach for the summer. I want to fit into my wedding dress right, I want to be able to chase after my grandchildren and be fit right. Whatever it is that you want to do, you finally find that thing that tips it and makes it important enough, and I think that's the hard part with this work is what are you looking at that's going to make it important enough for you to want to treat other people fairly? And too many people I'm being really honest are just very selfish, right. They're very self-centered and they don't actually care about other people, and we're seeing that play out a lot in the global society right now, and it is why we're having the breakdown that we do.
Justin Reinert:Absolutely. I just have to jump in because I don't know. I think it's my own recency bias because I was working on it recently. But back to that formula for success. It's all about the dissatisfaction with the current state. Do I have a vision of the future and is the first step clear? Do I know what I need to do next to be able to get there? Sometimes that's missing for people. I have a vision of the future, but maybe I don't know the first thing I need to do next to be able to get there. Sometimes that's missing for people. I have a vision of the future, but maybe I don't know the first thing I need to do. And that's the work that you're doing, Stacey is helping people find that first step, which is great.
Britt Andreatta:Absolutely Well. I would love to hear about what's got you excited for something in the coming months. What are you brewing up? What are you looking forward to? It could be personal or professional, but I'd love to hear what's got you kind of amped up for the next part of this journey around the sun.
Stacey Gordon:For me, I think it's pivoting a little bit. Lisa introduced us right, lisa Gates and we did a LinkedIn Live conversation yesterday, which actually failed. It didn't happen because there was a technological issue and LinkedIn. It didn't work. So we went to Zoom and we pivoted. We were joking about the fact that we have to pivot right, and that just seems to be the focus right now.
Stacey Gordon:The thing that keeps coming up for me is pivoting and pivoting all over the place, and so I do want to be clear. I think, in the work that I do, I'm always focusing on diversity equity inclusion. It's always the underpinning, it's just always been there, and so I think when people hear me talk about talent advising or global leadership strategy, sometimes they think like, oh, she's moving away from DEI. No, no, I've always done DEI right, even when I was a recruiter, and I think that is the conversation I'm trying to get across to people. We've been saying this for 10 years, which is that if you have to say that you are enforcing a diversity equity inclusion strategy, then you're not doing it right. It should just be part of the strategy.
Stacey Gordon:Back when I was recruiting, I used to tell people I was a diversity recruiter, and then I realized no, I'm not a diversity recruiter, I'm just a good recruiter. I'm just a fair recruiter. I am just a recruiter. I'm just a fair recruiter. I am just a recruiter that makes sure that there's opportunities for all. For me, that's what I'm really excited about is, even despite that, there is such an opportunity right now for people to really understand what diversity, equity and inclusion is, to get an underpinning and some understanding of what that looks like and also how they contribute to that. So those are the conversations I'm having with a lot of leaders, and I'm really excited about the conversations that I've been invited to participate in, because more people are paying attention and at higher levels, which is necessary for change to happen.
Britt Andreatta:Yeah, and I love that. Consumers are even voting around the companies that decided to wash their DEI initiatives and those that are leaning in. Consumers are voting with their dollars. They want to support the organizations that care about these things, and we know the research is really clear the more diverse a team is, the stronger it is. The more innovative, the higher the engagement, the better the productivity. We thrive when we have different experiences, different voices, different points of view. So we know that that's the way forward and that's the path to the greatest success. I love the work you're doing.
Stacey Gordon:Thank you.
Justin Reinert:Stacey, thank you so much for joining us today. We'll have your contact info and notes about you in the show notes, but if people want to find you or get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Stacey Gordon:As I said, we're pivoting. We have been simplifying and moved a lot of our content to Substack so you can find us at reworkwork. substack. com. Obviously, my website still works reworkwork. com. You can find me there and send me a message on LinkedIn. I'm easily findable. My daughter loves to Google me and see if I show up as the number one Stacey Gordon. She gets very upset when Stacey Gordon, the puppeteer, shows up as number one. We can't have that. And the puppeteer shows up as number one.
Britt Andreatta:We can't have that. Yes, I know you are super busy and you're doing so many things for organizations and I'm very grateful that you joined us for our inaugural season of the podcast and wishing you all the best, both professionally and personally. Thank you, I'm just happy to be invited.
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