Brain Aware Podcast
The Brain Aware Podcast, exploring the science of success. We harness the power of human biology to help people—and organizations—rise to their potential. Join internationally recognized thought leader Dr. Britt Andreatta and talent strategist Justin Reinert as they explore the neuroscience behind today's workplace challenges, like change, teams, and leadership.
Each episode unpacks actionable insights from cutting-edge research to help you create environments for people to do their best work. Whether you’re an executive, people leader, talent professional, or lifelong learner, you’ll walk away with tools you can use today. Listen to become more brain aware.
Brain Aware Podcast
Reinventing Careers: Dr. Beverly Kay's Guide to Growth in Transition
What makes career transitions so challenging? How can organizations retain their top talent? Legendary career development expert Dr. Beverly Kay joins us to share wisdom gathered across her remarkable 40+ year journey in the field.
Dr. Kay reveals the development of her groundbreaking "Five P" model for career growth: Person, Perspective, Place, Possibilities, and Plan. She explains why most professionals get stuck at the "Possibilities" stage, limiting themselves to narrow paths rather than exploring multiple directions. This insight revolutionizes how we approach career conversations and planning.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Dr. Kay introduces her LEVER framework – a comprehensive approach that gives professionals significantly more career options beyond traditional upward movement. Through Lateral moves, Enrichment opportunities, Vertical advancement, Exploratory assignments, Relocation possibilities, and Realignment options, individuals gain unprecedented flexibility in their career journeys.
Drawing from extensive research, Dr. Kay identifies the three powerful factors that keep employees engaged: career development opportunities, meaningful relationships, and supportive organizational culture. She emphasizes how psychological safety creates the foundation for honest career conversations, allowing both managers and employees to discuss strengths, weaknesses, and aspirations openly.
We explore the transformative impact of AI on career development, including Dr. Kay's own "Help Them Grow" AI bot that provides just-in-time guidance for managers preparing for career conversations. Rather than seeing technology as a threat, Dr. Kay envisions how AI can enhance human interactions in professional development.
Listen now to gain practical strategies for navigating workplace transitions, creating engaging organizational cultures, and helping both yourself and others thrive in today's rapidly evolving professional landscape. Your career journey will never look the same again.
Welcome to the Brain Aware podcast, where we explore the science of success. Join your hosts, dr Britt Andreatta and Justin Reiner, who are thrilled to bring you today's episode featuring the renowned Dr Beverly Kay. A pioneering thought leader in career development and organizational strategy, bev shares her incredible insights on navigating professional transitions, developing effective leadership approaches and creating cultures where both people and organizations thrive. With decades of experience and numerous best-selling books to her name, bev brings a wealth of wisdom to our conversation about career development in today's rapidly evolving workplace. Join us for what promises to be an enlightening discussion.
Britt Andreatta:Bev, I'm so excited to have you on our podcast today. As you know, I'm a huge fan and I've been so grateful for your mentorship over my career that it's just a real honor to have you on today. So thank you for taking time out of what I know is a very busy schedule for you. I'd love our listeners to hear a little bit more about your amazing career journey and a little bit more about you, bev K.
Bev Kaye:Well, your subject of change has always been hard for me, interestingly, all the way through. Hard for me, interestingly, all the way through. If anybody would have told me decades ago I'd be doing what I'm doing now, I'd probably say no way, because I started off very traditionally I am not embarrassed to say in my 80s. So back years ago it was typical for a young woman to be a secretary of nurse or a teacher and I picked teacher and went to a state teacher's college and when I was about to graduate I realized, hey, I'm not so crazy about kids, I'd like to do something different. And I was one of those very active college students president of my class, et cetera and realized that working with college age students would be interesting to me. So I got a master's at GW and worked at schools as a college dean. That I probably never could have gotten into and it taught me a lot about the choices students make right, smart, moving along students and what bogs them down.
Bev Kaye:And your subject change is what's hard. Hard because I think they get one idea of what they want to do and they don't have multiple options. So I think that idea of multiple options has stuck with me and when I had a chance to go back to UCLA for my doctorate, I studied change as it relates to careers, and I think I learned a lot about how to develop. I had to do what's called phenomenological research Study the phenomenon at that time of career development and build my own theory about it. So that right, there was a gigantic challenge for me, because I'm an action girl, I'm not a pondering kind of girl, so I had to ponder a lot of what I was learning and build a theory around it.
Britt Andreatta:That's fantastic. I so admire everything that you've done in this space.
Bev Kaye:I was just going to say when I think back to my doctoral dissertation orals, I was asked to do what's called phenomenological research, which means you study a phenomenon and then you write a theory based on the phenomenon you're studying, and I chose career development. That turned into my first book, but I failed my doctoral orals three times because my committee said that can't be your theory. Go start again. And I actually started that research three times. By the third try I had it and I think that's where my career and my interest in helping managers and employees around careers really kicked in and, as I said, it led to my first book, which was titled Up is Not the Only Way and boy Up is Not the Only Way is bigger now than it was when I first looked at it Absolutely.
Justin Reinert:Yeah, beth, I have to say I'm honored to be on the podcast with you. You have such a legacy and for me in the beginnings of my leadership development career, it was your books that were out there and a part of my study and learning about how to guide professional development for people. So it's so great If you think back on your career. You've helped so many people navigate a lot of career changes and transitions, and so I'm curious if you wouldn't mind sharing what makes career change more challenging for people and maybe tell us a little bit about the model that you've developed, and maybe tell us a little bit about the model that you've developed.
Bev Kaye:The model that I developed is really a simple one and it's got for managers and for employees and it's held up all these years. For the individual, the model says you've got to have answers to five arenas of questions, five. I call them the five P. One is person, which of course means what do I bring to the table, what are my skills? What do I want to avoid? The second is perspective. Do others see me the way I see myself, and can I get more perspective? And that's hard.
Bev Kaye:The third is place, and how is my organization changing, how is my industry changing, and what changes does that mean I have to make in my career? The fourth one is possibilities, and I think the S on the end of that word is the most important part. It's how do I look at multiple possibilities instead of one, one thing I want. And then the final P for the individual is plan. How do I now lay out a plan? And it's sad that we want to move right to plan before we do the homework in the other parts of it. And that's the job of the leader to ask some great questions of their employees to get them thinking broader and thinking of multiple possibilities, not just one.
Justin Reinert:Yeah, and you know it just makes me wonder you have to have seen this model work for so many people. I'm curious if you have any anecdotes or stories of individuals over the year who have used the model to you know just a really great effect, that they've had a great impact because of the model.
Bev Kaye:I think that one big aha is people realize where they're stuck. Are they stuck on person perspective, place possibilities or plan? And most get stuck around around possibilities because they see a narrow lineup of possibilities for themselves. And I want to see them open that up wider and deeper so that people see multiple possibilities. And I think when I wrote Up is Not the Only Way I named different possibilities that people might choose from, because the more possibilities you have, the less you're stuck and options are critical.
Britt Andreatta:Fantastic. I also love another one of your books that has to do with career development and coaching, and I know you've helped a lot of managers and employees with creating better engagement and retention, which is always an issue for organizations that want to keep their best talent. Can you share some of your best tips that you've given organizations around engagement and retention Right?
Bev Kaye:You know around engagement and retention for leaders. I think it is really all about the everydayness of your interaction with your employees. And where can I catch a glimmer of excitement? Or where do I catch a glimmer of this is not me. I'm uncomfortable doing this kind of work Around engagement and retention. We did a ton of research and we found there really are three big areas that will keep people. One, in general, is the area of career development Am I growing? The other is the whole area of relationships Do I have relationships that keep me here and keep me wanting more? And the third is really all about culture. Is really all about culture? Is this the culture that feeds me and fits me? I think is what it's all about. And that book we ended up having so much data that when we tried to organize it, we organized it according to the alphabet, so we give you the A through Zs of retention and engagement, and each one comes from that research, shifting gears a little bit.
Justin Reinert:If you think about some of the conversations around career development for managers. Having those conversations, how does change play into that? Navigating change and career conversations for managers? If you think about initiatives that you've driven in different organizations, I'm curious how that resonates it really resonates differently for every single manager on their comfort level with change.
Bev Kaye:And I know, britt, you talk a lot in your book that we're talking about now, about psychological safety, and I think for leaders around the globe, how much psychological safety do you feel as a leader in telling your people the truth about the possibilities you see for them and why some possibilities are more fitting than others?
Bev Kaye:So I think that's really hard for leaders to open up those conversations that enable them to make it psychologically safe for them to say here's what I don't see coming from you and here's what I do see coming from you, coming from you, and here's what I do see coming from you. So your psychological safety I know a lot of people are using those words it's particularly important in career development, absolutely, and even in retention and engagement, and it's how comfortable am I being real with each of my direct reports? And the flip is, how comfortable am I telling my manager where I feel good about my work and where I need to get even better? So yay for your mentioning psychological safety in your book, because I think it's really important and we've never named it.
Britt Andreatta:But the word psychological safety kind of are the perfect words yeah, that that's the research of dr amy edson and I have been so impressed by her research in that area, but then I've woven it into our understanding of change and creating teams that are really able to perform at their peak, and also how we navigate all kinds of organizational shifts, that kind of stuff. When you're helping organizations navigate change because I know you go in and work with some of the biggest names in corporations around the world what are some strategies you found to be useful when you're helping them embrace some of these difficult conversations or maybe topics that they don't want to necessarily?
Bev Kaye:lean into. I'd love to hear some of your favorite go-to moves that you use to help them move along, of your favorite go-to moves that you use to help them move along. Well, to help leaders feel comfortable, I think we have to have them try on the career development methodology that we teach for themselves. And right when you start doing it for yourself and thinking, well, what are my options? If I can't move up, where else can I move? They get in their heart of hearts how hard it is for their individual employees. So, in the work we've delivered and, of course, starting back with the flip charts and magic markers and all of that in the old days to now giving it to people in new ways, it still is the idea of apply it to yourself, leader, and see where you get stuck around your own career choices, because it's out of that place that you could most help, I think, your employees.
Britt Andreatta:Another one of your favorite books is Help them Grow or Watch them Go, which I think is so great because you really coach people how to have some of these conversations and even some of the language to use, and I have found that just the title of that book is so true of the language to use, and I have found that just the title of that book is so true, like if managers are not invested in helping people grow and there's lots of ways to grow, folks are going to leave because we hunger to grow. It's one of our deepest human needs and if we're not in a place or under a person that we feel like that's going to be supported, human nature is to go look for the place where I can thrive. So I think that that's such a core element to creating a great workplace and maybe the very question, how can I grow?
Bev Kaye:needs to be broken down into parts. And I talk a lot I've always talked a lot about having leverage in your career. The more you have leverage to move in a variety of directions, the less you'll feel stalled and stuck, and I'm very big on mnemonics to help people remember. So the idea of career leverage is that you think of lever leverage. The more leverage I have, the more choices I have. And it stands for.
Bev Kaye:How can I move laterally? That's the L. How can I enrich the E? How can I grow right where I am? What is my next vertical move and what is the upside and downside of that? Because everybody thinks vertical first but we don't think about what we give up and what it would feel like. So it's lateral enrichment, vertical.
Bev Kaye:The next E in lever is exploratory. How can I do a short-term test of something? How can I try something out? How can I take on an assignment and then think it through in terms of what felt comfortable and what didn't? So exploration I think we don't do enough of in organizations.
Bev Kaye:And there's two R's in Lever. The first is relocation, which means if it's not working out here, where else might I go, so that I have that in my own mindset that I'm always looking for. What other choices are there in this organization first, other parts of it, and in what other organizations? And I think that's critical. The other thing I think we skip when we think about careers is realignment, which is I said yes to that upward move. I got there and I realized not only was I not good at it, but in fact I didn't like it very much. And that happens for a lot of tech people who say yes to management and realize it doesn't fit and what they'll do is look elsewhere before they talk to their own organization about the non-fit of that move, especially if it was a promotion was a promotion. So I think sometimes realigning meaning going back, not exactly to what you were doing, but slightly different is critical.
Justin Reinert:I love all the models that you have in your toolkit and that one is really great and if I think about in my own career, it is absolutely the zigzags and the lateral movements and the realigning and the pivoting that has made me the strong professional that I am today. It wasn't just, you know, one arrow straight up, it was really zigzagging around. I appreciate the context of that. I want to talk a little bit about fear of failure. So in Britt's book Wired to Resist, she talks about the role that the habenula plays in failure, kind of preventing people from moving forward sometimes when they fear failure. So I'm curious how you've helped people mitigate fear of failure in the different changes or transitions that they've navigated.
Bev Kaye:I think fear of failure is inside all of us and maybe that's what connects most to your looking at psychological safety. And maybe what we don't say to ourselves is and what if this doesn't work? What's a backup plan, what's another way I can move, and if I feel it's not working, who can I talk to about that and what parts aren't working? It's like for everybody who thinks moving up is the way, I don't think they think enough about what else goes with moving up and how comfortable am I with all those other new ways of behavior that I'll have to have to move up into that other area? And how might I blow it? Might I?
Bev Kaye:It said, because you can name those ways, it's much better help than going blindly into yes, I want that next, next step up, and I don't think people ask managers what their own managers even. What did you love about managing and what did you find you didn't expect that you, in fact, not only didn't love but weren't very good at, in a way. What are your fears and what have you learned, which is really important?
Britt Andreatta:I would love to hear what you're looking forward to Like. I know you always have exciting things unfolding in your life, so share with us. It can either be professional or personal, but what's something you're excited about in the coming months?
Bev Kaye:Well, I don't know if the word is excited or fearful or worried, but two big changes. One is I'm moving out of a home I've lived in for 40 years, with an entire floor of that home like 800 square feet devoted to my office and my files and my precious books. And the downside of that beautiful way to work is we have 85 stairs in our three-level home and now we're realizing that we need less stairs, less mountains to climb. So not only am I making a physical move, but I'm looking at the changes in my own organization. The coming of AI has certainly changed a lot. The Help them Grow book has an AI bot that goes with it that helps managers prepare for their career conversations. But as I use different forms of AI, I'm blown away by how much easier it can make all our work and how many of us are going to have to shift careers because AI is out there helping people get the answers we might want to give with our slant, of course.
Britt Andreatta:Yeah, I'm playing with the idea of creating my own Brit bot. That sounds funny, but the same kind of thing. We're building one so that people who are interested in my research can come and ask a question and it will share some of the information. But I also am overwhelmed by the power and the amazingness and also just how huge AI is and trying to navigate that. So I think that's a change everyone is kind of facing right now, wherever they are in the world, and it's only getting better.
Bev Kaye:So, you know, when we look ahead, it's like maybe we're going to really change the look and feel of every organization and the look and feel of every manager's interaction with each of their direct reports, Because AI could help. I know that in our AI piece for Help them Grow, we ask them managers to talk about a person they have to have a career meeting with, and the bot asks questions and we give managers ideas. So so much for training courses, et cetera, and that's what we all have to think about. How is it going to affect my field and my specialty?
Justin Reinert:So great and what better. You know, I can think over my career talking about just-in-time solutions for training, my career talking about just in time solutions for training. I mean, how better can you get at just in time when you're asking a question to a bot and it can give you the answer that you need right when you need it?
Bev Kaye:I love that right, or asking it to give you a set of questions that you can use for your next career conversation, or a set of questions that you can use with someone who you think could be thinking about moving on and out of your organization. So I have some favorite ones in those areas. But you're right, the bot can give you that answer. So can the books? Right, right.
Justin Reinert:Yeah, bev, I want to thank you so much for joining us. I'm just so honored to spend some time with you today and get to ask you some questions and we'll make sure that you know everyone listening knows who you are. But we'll make sure that we have links to your website and your LinkedIn and whatnot in the show notes so that people can find you and connect with you and maybe they can have their own engagement with the. Are you calling it the BevBot? Is it BevBot?
Bev Kaye:Yeah, no, it's the Help them Grow or Watch them Go Bot. It matches the title.
Justin Reinert:Great, we'll get them directed to that, but thank you so much.
Britt Andreatta:Bev, thank you again and we so appreciate you and all the groundbreaking work you have done in this field, and I know you're going to continue to be a leader and I wish you the best on your transitions. That you're in the middle of Just a hot tip. We're wired to resist, so if you're feeling resistance about your move, that's normal. You'll get on the other side of it and just sending you a big hug, good.
Bev Kaye:And I am feeling resistance, you know, in every way, shape or form, and it's good. I will definitely reread it with that in mind. Good idea, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Brain Aware podcast. To learn more about Brain Aware Training and our brain-based approach to change teams and all levels of employee development, visit brainawaretrainingcom.
